Episode 74: PIXAR’s “22 Rules of Storytelling” and How To Use Them

Molly Geoghegan 00:21

Hello, and welcome to presentation thinking, the show where we are thinking about presentations and storytelling and what makes good stories stick and why. So I'm really excited today to be talking about Pixar 22 rules of storytelling. Pixar and Disney have been on the mind after our first ever seven basic plots webinar last month. And we're just going to keep jamming with it because there is so much to be found and learn from children's stories. So I am joined today by Emily Pinto, her and Asha Elahi Sharif, from Ghost Ridge communications. Give them a warm welcome presentation nation. Tila go ahead and introduce yourself.

Emily Pantoja 00:58

Hi, I'm Emily As Molly mentioned, and I am a recovering Pixar addicted versus just getting there's no recovery from that. Yeah, I'm a graphic designer here at go stretch.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 01:13

Gonna you know certified Disney adult. If I don't go to Disney at least one time a year I will implode.

Molly Geoghegan 01:21

Love that classification. I invited Asha and Emily because not only obviously you're amazing designers that go strange, but I know you are publicly out Disney adults. So I was like perfect. Let's let's do him about this. And Asha. I've said this to you. I love Disney and Pixar. But I'm a huge baby and I sub like I can't handle these like parent deaths at the beginning that Disney is always serving us. So it takes me a little bit to watch them. You know, I think I watched frozen six, five or six years after it was released. So I felt very behind in my toddler party seeing this. But when I watched it, I was like, Okay, I get it. Like that was a laugh is freaking funny. So I get it. I'm here. And I want to again, always disclaim like, you know, this is a presentation podcast. Why are we talking about Pixar. We've actually had an amazing connection to Pixar. I think actually, since we started the podcast early on, we did a an analytical episode on Matthew LHINs TED Talk. And he is a former Pixar animator. And his talk is called storytelling in business. And it's all about what makes stories and what makes the Pixar stories in particular, so successful. And he relates that to how that can be learned and successful for your business. And ironically, his family had like a toy store growing up. So it's very, very much branded for him his whole life, right? So really fascinating. That's episode number 19. If you want to go back and deep dive into that, if you're an animation or Pixar nerd as well, that one was super fun. So we also just did our seven basic plots webinar, and because of all the connections with Pixar movies, and just what we can learn from children's stories that are really some of the best ways to like, those basic mechanisms of what people remember what's meaningful, what's impactful, we've done so many comparisons for for people to use out in the wild. So kind of coming off of that we want to just carry on the Pixar torch and keep, keep chatting about it. Right. So if you're a product marketer, there's lots of these shapes, story shapes and strategies that you might be able to implement into your presentations or your decks or a new product launch. If you're a speaker, absolutely fun, fun things to implement fun story shapes and, and strategies and people that make content for kids. Obviously this is for you too. So we are going to go through what is it the 22 rules of storytelling written by Emma Coates, a former Pixar animator, Emily and Asha. Have either of you heard of this? Like when I messaged you about it like literally yesterday?

03:50

No, I have not.

Molly Geoghegan 03:51

I have I love it. I love it. addict indeed. Where did you Where did you hear about it? I'm curious. Twitter. Okay, yeah,

Emily Pantoja 04:00

totally minutely Twitter. And then I feel like it's just it's funny because sometimes I think it's referenced in jest or even annoyingly, as like, the formula right to follow or wine feels like a Pixar movie or Disney or any other animation studio. So it's funny to me how they can be taken as Wow, yeah, that's really good guideposts are also like, Oh, you're so I don't want to have to stick to that all the time. But

Molly Geoghegan 04:28

I like Yeah. Okay, cool. So yeah, you're a fan. Asha is new to it. I'm fairly new to it too. And I only learned about it through Mikey with this Matthew lung connection. So again, the 22 rules for storytelling as written by Emma Coates, a former Pixar animator, she now has in her Twitter bio just to disclaim she says she should have called them wrote the 22 story rules should have called them guidelines hindsight. 2020. So as you said, Emily, like, I mean, not every story is going to be able to have fit into 22 rules. I don't think you know story should fit into it. like a whole list of rules, but I think it's meant to just really get people inspired and learn from Yeah, the true the elements that make Pixar and Disney films. So like pervasive across countries and across the world, and like classics, right? What makes something classic so that's what you want for your audience. You want to be like a classic.

Emily Pantoja 05:20

Me I feel it. I also specialize so well and it's not just like child content. It's really human experience. Situation even what it feels like, which is why people like me and Asha continue without embarrassment to consume this thought at rapid speed. Totally. Yeah, and you're not alone special it's still it doesn't feel like I'm watching like it on there or which is fun to you sometimes. But yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 05:48

there's always something to be learned beyond just the morals Yeah, I mean, third is like the storytelling structure. So okay, let's get into it. Number one is admire characters for attempting more than what their successes have been. So who which characters come to mind you guys thinking about that? characters that are attempting to maybe improve themselves or do do something different from the past?

Emily Pantoja 06:10

Oh my god, rapid fire. Go Asha. Go. Remy?

Molly Geoghegan 06:16

Yeah, okay, like that. Remy from ratatouille. Remi is the rat that, you know, all of his rat family eats garbage, but he is into fine cuisine and eating and he doesn't understand why his rat brethren don't want to like try nice food. And so I really saw this one Yeah, as a rags to riches connection, someone that's trying to break break free break away from something that something that's been the way it always has been. Or even like top the previous success I kind of also see this as a bit of an Icarus thing where like, how do you attempt more than you might previous success? Or like how do I do bigger and better? Something? I don't know. Carl from up even like with his amazing inventions and contraption, right. And so he's like, trying to just kind of do something more than what he had done in the past. Right? Especially on behalf of his past wife tragically, yeah.

Emily Pantoja 07:08

Oh, my God, chill me soon. She's not ever not going to be too soon. Yeah, for me, Mike was our speed is the number one that stands out to me with this rule. I mean, part of his character arc and and all of the sort of comedic relief moments even offers where you think he's about to be disappointed by having one it's on a magazine and his face is covered up by the barcode for him. Yes, ever so slightly off screen, and he starts to react as if he's about to be really sad. But then he's still celebrates, like, I'm on the cover of a magazine. He's, I feel like for me, he's just infamously trying all the time. You see it more and mobsters University Of course, too. But I like that he's also able to celebrate that trying and when everyone else is expecting him to be disappointed.

Molly Geoghegan 08:04

Yeah, absolutely. It's like a he's a bit of an underdog for sure. And he's trying to kind of like, make his way with silly. But yeah, that's fun. Okay, we got it. There's 22. So we'll keep rolling. But I think for, you know, in a product marketer context, or in a presentation, thinking context, I think, trying to Yeah, build on what's already been done, whether it's kind of the underdog story, whether it's the rags to riches kind of thing. I think this is something where you can leverage either content or another story that already exists. So you're like, how can we even do that better? So I think that's the arc that kind of fits for

Emily Pantoja 08:41

that one. Yeah, for sure. I feel like a lot of product marketers these days, too, are are less and less trying to present their product or idea as the be all end all per se. And we're like, we acknowledge that all of these other products exist, we help consolidate those products, or we have functionality from all these different places in one spot. So it's Yeah, again, that acknowledgement of we know you've been doing this already. We're not saying that you've been doing it poorly. We're trying to make it easier for you.

Molly Geoghegan 09:14

Definitely, definitely. All right. Number two is keep in mind what's interesting to you as an audience, not what's fun as a writer because they can be very different. And I think this is just obviously plays into the audience. First messaging, who are you talking to? Like, I can obviously not every Pixar writer is like, has an experience as a like, top notch chef in Paris and is writing about a rat and taking that on, like, who knows who they thought that was going for in the first place. I don't know who vich that but you have to think of like there's just such a, like wide breadth of varying storylines throughout Pixar and Disney that, you know, like they have to they have to play towards lots of people. It's not necessarily just the writers experiences.

Emily Pantoja 09:58

Yeah. 100% And then this is Another for again, product marketers specifically but anyone pitching anything truly has to deal with. Who am I pitching this to today during the presentation? Because yes, they're sort of those plug and chug this is how we always present ourselves. Every now and then especially in something like FinTech or like the science world, any of the science modalities having to understand am I presenting to a scientist? Or am I presenting to someone who doesn't know as much about this research and it's more just for funding purposes and yeah, having to keep that top of mind and adjust accordingly is so important.

Molly Geoghegan 10:40

Totally, totally. And then just for fun for both of you what is the most like growing up? What was the one movie that you were like? This is mine like you know who what what audience like what writer spoke to you, captured you as an audience member?

Asha Alaji-Sharif 10:54

This probably sounds weird, but I feel like I can relate more to a lot of Pixar movies now than I can a child having like eight different things in life. So I don't know Monsters University.

Molly Geoghegan 11:06

Just got you that's that would be a lot. I love it. Okay, awesome. Tell her

Emily Pantoja 11:13

I'm gonna I'm gonna break out and go into a different studio Raul. But Greg Stole Christmas the Jim Carrey nice No. Version. That's that's the whole mood right there.

Molly Geoghegan 11:27

I know. Mine was definitely a Tim Burton Nightmare Before Christmas, or but if I had to pick Disney, I'd go 101 Dalmatians because I was obsessed with dogs, because I did not have one. So I, I acted like a dog for many, many months in my childhood. So yeah, they usually out on the podcast now show furry for free bird cutting myself off. And we got to keep going. Number three is trying for theme is important. However, you won't see what the story is until you're at the end of the story. Got it. Now rewrite. This is such a writer piece of advice. I feel like where it's like you won't know what you're doing until you're at the end. And then your whole story is different. So this totally hits me in a way of creating a presentation, we talked about the intents that you're going for, but until you see the true, like broad story that it fits within, you might not be able to be like, Well, I'm gonna do this wizard of oz theme. And it's totally gonna work until I've arrived at the end. I know exactly, all the metaphors that line up accordingly. But you can't like force things into a metaphor or a theme. And so until you kind of like have that don't go making merch for your main company or your corporation with like symbols and stuff that isn't going to like line up with the story.

Emily Pantoja 12:39

Right or you can get so caught up in to keep going with the Wizard of Oz. Perhaps presenting when she gets to the Emerald City as like wow. And we're the Emerald City and then not acknowledging that that's not the end of the movie and not actually the likes finish conclusion to the magic was inspired her all along, she loves being home. It almost kind of like cheapens your ideas at that point a little bit to stick so close to that. This guideline is interesting, too. Because this sort of format of advice is repeated probably the most throughout these 22 have started and started the end. Don't like sell yourself short or try to make an after

Molly Geoghegan 13:23

the fact see the goal first. Yeah, but then like work backwards. Yeah. Which is definitely what we're trying to

Emily Pantoja 13:29

do all the time. With people putting together pitches and presentations, we never typically start with asking them So walk me through from beginning to end what you want to say it's typically what is the outcome you're hoping from this what you want the audience to feel by the end of your talk and then that can that serves as a really great guideposts for Well, that's not really leading us they're like yeah, you're maybe following the traditional problems. So you know, problems solution result time format, but it might not get that wow, we want them to feel empowered and motivated. It's yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 14:05

absolutely. Yeah. And like Pixar people might just say some of their goals sometimes are like let's make people suffer like that's, that's the goal. Oh my god sister Princess frog. I can't talk about so. Yeah. Okay, not to make the classroom but do you guys want to read number four popcorn popcorn it over? Do you remember that popcorn a little like sentences? Oh, I hated it. Yeah, I'm doing it.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 14:32

Number four, once upon a time, there was every day one day because until finally, and I read somewhere that this is supposed to be like the stories behind like, you know, everything around what kind of format and I feel like it follows kind of that structure that we see throughout all of the seven block they'd like thing, you know, like the upside

Molly Geoghegan 14:54

down? Yeah, absolutely. The Pixar story spine is another thing like another store. worry framework. Well, if we're down the Pixar rabbit hole we'll have to dive into but number four outlines that where it's like just giving you these kind of blanks to fill in. Once upon a time, there was a boy who every day did this, but one day, and like naming some kind of change. And I think this is kind of yet the perfect to recipe really distill down for a lot of Pixar stuff, where things are usually the status quo, like Milan is just doing the thing. But then one day, she decides to venture away from the island, right? And because of that, everything changes. So it's like always this instead, there's always a big change, named the big change. That said in Andy raskins Promised Land method just we find that in so many frameworks where you want to like just really call out that first thing so there's there's a kid that gets into the monsters laboratory scare factoring. What's the what's their corporation? Last year bringing? Yeah, Monsters Inc, I guess. Yeah. Of course. And yeah, there were there. Yeah. Creepy lady that wants to skin all the donations like it was out of that. But like, God, horrible. I know. When you say it out loud. It's like the way

Emily Pantoja 16:11

you say it the way it is. It's like, wow, why were we watching this? Yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 16:15

absolutely terrible. Especially the older one. All right. That's yeah, but stories buying super simple. That's a great way to just if you are staring at a blank page, look at this number for Pixar stories buying for the rural storytelling. Okay, number five, Toha. Bring it in.

Emily Pantoja 16:31

Simplify, focus, combined characters hop over detours, you'll feel like you're losing valuable stuff. But it sets you free.

Molly Geoghegan 16:39

Simplify focus, okay, like this. It's like this is a distill it piece of advice. And yeah, writers give all sorts of this kind of editing is the hardest part for writers, right. So like, you might have like a million ideas, and they're all kind of good. But you really can only have a few to make to make them all shine, you need to have just a few at a time, right? So combining characters you don't want to like especially this is children's content. And honestly, when you're making a presentation, I know audiences see a lot of stuff, there's so much data consumed in a day, researchers are telling us that we only remember 5% Of all the data consumed within a day. But 65% of that goes up when there's visuals. I just said these statistics yesterday, sorry, remember them. And so make the visuals really impactful. But don't overdo it. Right? So it's like just give them a couple of things to look at and get you one or two really good ideas. And the initial like goal to make sure that's conveyed effectively so you don't distill and take away from the other other ideas. Any examples with Pixar movies you guys can think of like that are like really do this? Well, where there's not too much going on?

17:44

Oh, well, this one I think didn't do well. Or as well.

Molly Geoghegan 17:48

Yeah, I like to doesn't do well,

Emily Pantoja 17:50

to kind of really pick up on this particular guideline, you almost have to go into that the DVD extras realm where you see all of the storyboarding, they did character designs, and then where they ended up. That's fun. Like, whoa, like some of the original character designs for monsters and monsters Incorporated, are wildly different than what we ended up with. They're still like a General Mike is really tall. Or excuse me, my kids really short Mike. Mike is really short Sally's really tall. So they're that funny kind of dichotomy. But at one point solely had like tentacles for legs instead of just kind of walking. Normally. Yeah, so I feel like the beauty in the Pixar movie is that this particular guideline is absolutely hidden. There's typically, if you like the movies, that is I should say, not not a ton of critique on well, why did they put that in there? They should have left that out. That's so rare, I feel with Pixar movies, because they do this. Slowly.

Molly Geoghegan 18:52

Absolutely. Okay, awesome. Moving right along. Number six is what is your character good at or comfortable with? And throw the polar opposite at him challenge him? How does he deal with it? And this is so like, yeah, give your characters the exact problem that's going to like nag at the core, the core wound or the core problem or core struggle they have, right. So obviously, Marlon and Finding Nemo after losing his sweet little wife, you know, then loses his son. And I'm like, that's the worst case scenario, right? So like, how does he deal with it? He has to go get them right. It's like give them the worst possible problems again, and again and again. And yeah, we see that everywhere. Obviously obstacles, obstacles, obstacles in any of these movies, otherwise they're not fun to watch.

Emily Pantoja 19:36

Right? Well, and it's self care you're building as well. Like for Marlin specifically, his normal or what he wants is complete safety. He wants to know where Nemo is. You take them to school. He brings a poem like total knowledge of where his son is at all times. And then the exact opposite is Nemo getting fish napped,

Molly Geoghegan 19:56

or however you'd like. He was fished up

Emily Pantoja 19:59

Right, but then when you see Marlins personality come through in that moment in the how do you deal with it? He doesn't simply stay at home and mope and say, I'm poor me, poor me. He goes through all of these challenges to find Nemo and Petia. Unfortunately, way, Sydney. Yeah, I got to see it very character building. Same thing with Mallanna. She she wanted to go out in the ocean she wanted to explore she was told she couldn't. But what she finally did, she was met with Oh, this isn't like easy peasy, as I thought it would be or I'm not. I don't know how to do any of this. But again, her personality comes through, she pushes through, she learns she needs Maoli and forces him to teach her how to become a wave by her.

Molly Geoghegan 20:48

Yeah, absolutely. And you have to like you have to name the status quo that your audience or like your customer might be dealing with, and how what problems are currently there. And you're like, where's the discomfort? But like, How can I like present me with the solution to so that helps you set up like it naming the problem helps you set up for the solution. We'll plug this later, but we have a lunch and learn all about problem slides on June 28. That's the end of this month. So we'll, we'll throw that in later. All right, number seven. Asha, you want to take it sure

Asha Alaji-Sharif 21:17

that Ben come up with your ending? And before you figure out your middle seriously, endings are hard. Get yours working upfront. And I use this network like

Molly Geoghegan 21:28

every day. Yeah. Okay. Great to hear in what ways,

Asha Alaji-Sharif 21:31

mostly with the writing to like the twist, right? It's been really hard for me, that's not my strong suit. So it's like, okay, what is the point of this? What is the purpose of like, and then once I figured that out, I usually can go back and write a whole much faster.

Molly Geoghegan 21:46

Totally. Yeah, I think that's another like work backwards piece of advice, and helps you. Yeah, by knowing your goal and knowing how it's going to end. And then that gives you make sure you ensures you have a strong ending to because you know where you're going. You're not just ambling your way there. So any favorite Pixar Disney endings? I'm trying to think what mine is. Well, it's

Asha Alaji-Sharif 22:07

pretty red, turning red. I've been watching that movie a lot lately, but I think that is one of my favorite endings as of recent. Oh,

Molly Geoghegan 22:15

I don't know it. Yeah, tell us well, without

Asha Alaji-Sharif 22:19

I guess without spoilers, it's, it's really cool to see like a young girl. Stick to what you want. And like not be kind of swayed by every single other person around her doing the same thing. And she's like, You know what, actually, I

22:34

don't want to do you guys are doing I want to do it. I want to do. Yeah. And that was just very refreshing. I like

Molly Geoghegan 22:40

that. Yeah, that reminded me, I think people were really shocked. And maybe the reason that frozen was so popular, when it came out was that they're like, that doesn't end in a marriage. And it's really about the sisters like love for each other. And I just love that was so obvious in the end, right? We're like, the writers wanted this all along. They were making fun of the marriage arc the marriage trope in Disney's movies, all like the whole the whole movie and so leading up to that I think is really obvious. You could be like, of course this is always where they're going because it's about the sisters. So

Emily Pantoja 23:09

I like that. Yeah, I love that too. That like helps make that movie redeemable to me because it got so big so fast with the younger generations and he got a little annoying for a while

Molly Geoghegan 23:21

there Yeah.

Emily Pantoja 23:23

Good. Okay, at this point, my favorite this might be a contender for even my all time favorite Pixar movie but inside outs ending Oh yeah, I know. It emotionally wrecks you for a second but I love one if you're older you know young adult on seeing the ending and maybe reflecting on your own history with depression big just big emotions any big emotion right? It's so good to see kids being presented with this idea that you may not be happy all the time. We're learning about support systems we're learning about how important all emotions are accepting them acknowledging them inside out is just great. Well

Molly Geoghegan 24:13

I from what I've This is why I had you guys on because I haven't seen inside out in full so I don't I don't know how it ends. I will have to this is helping me like Build My List and that definitely bumping that one to the top you know, so parents.

24:27

Yeah, get some tissues. Get some tissues for that

Molly Geoghegan 24:30

kid. Oh, yeah. Okay, I need to make sure I'm prepared with like comfort food at the ready. Yes, yes. I love it. Okay, number eight ohioana rebellion.

Emily Pantoja 24:41

Sure it's yet another talking about Yeah, ending your sword. In a little bit different light though. Finish your story. Let go. Even if it's not perfect. In an ideal world, you have both but move on. do better next time. Yeah, absolutely. Like creative person. Advice dot totally. Yeah, you

Molly Geoghegan 25:02

can tell a writer wrote this. I was like, just finish the damn thing. Get it out there. Yeah, we don't have to linger long because this is just obvious yet. It's better to just finish and take it out into the world. And then you'll get feedback and you can come back and change things right. So that's what it's all, you know, trial and error. Perfectionism is a plague for sure.

Emily Pantoja 25:21

Yeah, the next guideline is my favorite one.

Molly Geoghegan 25:25

Okay, go ahead, do it.

Emily Pantoja 25:26

Is that okay? Okay, yeah. When you're stuck, make a list of what wouldn't happen next. Lots of times the material to get you unstuck will show up. This is nothing my mom taught me as a kid when you're like, I don't know why I'm annoyed. I don't know. I'm angry, or I don't know what I want. She wants me. What do you not want in this? Like, well, I don't want brother to be rude to me. Okay, so what you do want is to maybe figure out with him, the bow exists. But this is like, so pivotal, I feel to getting to finding the end of your story too, because it can be so helpful to me like, What does it feel natural? For someone doing a pitch or presentation? What would make your audience feel like whoa, that's not where I thought we were going with it. Or it gives you again, that backbone, that spine to land on that I'm taking you on this journey. It might not go where you thought it would but it all comes together and you will look back like, Oh, I get it now. Amazing.

Molly Geoghegan 26:31

Yeah. It's like a process of elimination. And like you said, totally, like life advice. In a way we're like, Well, I can think about what I don't want or what I don't need, or what's not gonna, like be good for my day, or workday or whatever. But you Yeah, sometimes it's hard to know exactly where where to start. And so when you do get to that stuck point, even if you've already started from backwards, and you started, you know, you're ending, you know, the goal, you're like, Okay, well, but that wouldn't happen next. Like that doesn't make sense to have that point. And so yeah, kind of like beating around the bush might help you find the push,

Emily Pantoja 27:02

you want good self censoring, too, because if you're looking at kind of the part where it says, the thing that will get you unstuck will probably show up because your left was looking at all of these things would not happen. What's left? And if there really isn't anything, it might be the point of go backward. One more step and see oh, did the did I try to take this where it wouldn't naturally makes sense? Yeah. It's so helpful. Just if you're stuck, there's a reason you might find the answer. That answer might be, go backward. A little bit. Try it one more time. See where Candyland takes you this time. Yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 27:38

love it. Yeah, absolutely. Number 10. Is pull apart the stories you like, what you like in them, as part of you recognize it before you use it. So this is like a nice, yeah, people kind of a research advice, right. I think this is another point. And I don't know if Emily, or Emma was meant to do this in the first place. But some of these are kind of sectioned in different categories of advice, I think, right? Like that the goal got the ending. And now we're in some advice that helps with like, yeah, you're stuck, you've reached a point where you're like, I've done some stuff. And now I actually have reached a point where I don't know what to do next. So besides the like, take a walk, drink a glass of water, you know, step away from the computer for a minute. I love this, like, go into stories you like get some inspiration from elsewhere, and see what else works, right? So if I was like a Pixar writer, I'd be like, when we go watch like other Pixar movies, I like and see. What like, what did we pull from that? Right? So I think imitation is the best form of flattery, like getting inspired by artists is why part of the reason why I think people can do great thing. So yeah, I love it. And you can see so much like, of the recipes of things that do work in, in Pixar films, used again, and again, like, like I was saying that single parent trope, which like it or not, definitely adds an emotional component and oftentimes, like an inciting incident for someone to get go on a journey or find something else or learn something about their past, right and other character. So even though there's the it's sad, it sets up an emotional, yeah, environment for for which we were like consuming, we empathize with the character immediately. Like it gives a lot of reasons for things to either go really good or really bad. Right? So if see the patterns, okay, cruising along, because you know, such good behavior, there's 22 of them. Number 11. Do you want to do that one?

Asha Alaji-Sharif 29:20

Sure. 11 one was useful. This story in particular, what's the Belize Bretton Woods sending you that are three seats off of that the heart of it, and I think you can see this a lot watching a lot of the behind the scenes of Pixar movie, like, you know, the people that are writing these stories, you can tell it's very personal for them. And he took a personal story and turned it into something that can resonate with people to do that in their presentations as well. Could your story meet you at the end of the day? There's nobody else that knows you like you. So like starting with yourself? I think it's a great place.

Molly Geoghegan 29:55

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. What's the belief burning within you? It's like such emotional advice. Yeah. And that's the personal piece too, right? Where, like, if you're writing something, or creating something for an audience, and you don't care about it, like that's gonna show for sure. So even if it's just, I'm using quotes here, just a new product launch, like you do have to care about it, because otherwise they're not gonna, they're gonna know that you didn't put any effort into like telling the story in a real and compelling way. And so that's what separates I think, good presenters, from great presenters and good product marketers from great ones because you anyone could just read a script or like regurgitate old copy used, but actually caring and like adjusting the story accordingly, per context per audience. Like that really matters. And you know, that Pixar people care about their characters because they're crying at the Oscars, and they're winning the awards. Oh, yeah, we know that. Okay, number 12. Till hot ticket away.

Emily Pantoja 30:54

All right, discount the first thing that comes to mind. And the second, third, fourth, fifth, get the obvious out of the way, surprise yourself.

Molly Geoghegan 31:05

Fun out of the box. Thinking right? Again, kind of like a brainstorm advice. What's the rocks name in frozen? The family of rocks? I'll I forget. But basically, I'm bringing this up because it's a ridiculous piece of the plot that Chris stuff right was raised by this, this crew of rocks essentially are like no, trolls. Yeah, the trolls that are under the rocks. Yeah, that's such an absurd piece of the plot. And it totally works. Because it's funny. It's ridiculous. It adds to his origin story. And you do believe it because he's goofy. But that's definitely not the first thing that someone thought of when they were thinking of like Khrushchev's back story, right? So I just love that Pixar continually brings in like, the sidekicks are often just so random and bizarre, but that's what makes it memorable. And that makes me a good character. So I love that agreed. Yeah. Okay. Number 13 is give your characters opinions. A character being passive or malleable is easy for you as a writer, but it's poison to your audience. Ooh, yeah, totally. The strong headed Pixar characters cannot be moved if they're on a mission usually. And we wouldn't want it any other way. The passive annoying characters on TV that I see are so hateable, and sometimes I like to sometimes you're like, Lou, I gotta, like continue to hate this person. But it's like do some favor Come on.

Emily Pantoja 32:31

Oh, my God, for like pitch purposes to I think it's so easy to get caught up in. We want to convert everyone we talked to into a believer or a buyer or whatever to do with your own product, but it kind of falls into the almost like a dating app trap, where if you're just trying to be to look appealing to everyone, you probably won't actually find those people that truly pair with you. Coming from someone who's never used a dating app. I feel like it just slandered all Tinder Bumble, because I'm so

Molly Geoghegan 33:10

no, no, no, I think you got it. Right. I think that was an apt analogy.

Emily Pantoja 33:14

But yeah, if you are last in neutrality, you will simultaneously not attract the people that feel as strongly as you do. And you will also you won't even push away the people that don't believe as you believe as well that everyone will just be left sort of myth. Like I don't care. The wars the death of the story is I don't care.

Molly Geoghegan 33:38

I love that comparison. For sure. Yeah, there's we want someone to be especially when you're creating content for kids, you want to be inspired. You want to be inspiring. So if you're creating characters like in a story for an audience or you yourself with a character there the character like you want them to want something right. What's that? What'd she say? Like the fire? Yeah, the belief burning within you. Come on. That should also be within your characters. Okay, number 14. Asha. Go ahead.

34:03

Yeah, 14.

34:05

One, the essence of your story,

Asha Alaji-Sharif 34:07

what's the most economical way of telling it, you know that you can build out their

Molly Geoghegan 34:12

health? Efficiency? Hill? Yeah, I know. Emma, I love this. But yeah, I think I think encapsulate some of the things that she mentioned earlier about just being really really concise with what is the essence, it's about toys, that talk but also that they like help each other and our end up being friends and like, they all care about the boy. They're connected to the human verse and they're connected with. So what's the most economical way of telling it like no fluff, no frills, distill, distill, distill? And yeah, keep that essence. A lot of people will say before you start a story, like can you say in one sentence, okay. Can you say in one paragraph, and then and then so on and so forth? Right,

Emily Pantoja 34:50

like classic TED Talk format, right? Totally, totally.

Molly Geoghegan 34:53

TED talks are only 18 minutes. It's not a lot of time. We can't even get through 22 rules and 22 men That's right. Rapid fire and helping me so, so grazie. Okay, so yeah, moving right along, Emily. So number

Emily Pantoja 35:08

15. If you were your character in this situation, how would you feel honesty lends credibility to unbelievable situations, which I feel directly connects with number 11. Why are you telling this story? What's this belief burning behind you? It I feel like this is something so universal a good story, even though even superhero movies or comics, for example, they're doing ridiculous things, right? Like not normal people would necessarily do but there's still some humanity behind that. Especially I feel like more more so now maybe in these superhero movies, where you see the dark side of the situation of why they behave the way that they do the pros and cons of having superpowers even. Yeah, but I totally agree with credibility, it kind of makes it so it's not just rose tinted glasses are just like, wow, no one would react that way. It's very alienating to see someone do something so bizarre in an trying situation. Like if Bambi didn't cry when his mom was killed? That would have been very, yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, maybe some people could relate to that. That's a whole other can of worms. for so many reasons, but it would be so bizarre for children especially when you first see that because you're probably already crying, too. Yeah. Then Bambi totally normal. Like this is whatever Yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 36:36

if you learned your love interest was raised by rock trolls you would react you'd be like shocked just a couple believable what yeah, you're so right with the human this like of the superheroes? Like that's crazy shit happens in movies and all this stuff, but it's only believable and relatable, because it's like the human reaction so you got to be like honest about how you would react as like a rat trying to make it in that cuisine. Paris, prepare, put yourself in those little pause.

Emily Pantoja 37:05

Pause. It connects really well to that distillation process to like, if you look at Pixar movies, even the sort of secondary tertiary characters if they have a line or if they do some action in frame there's still some amount of meanness to it. There's it's so believable in even someone saying something silly. Like in Monsters University, the little college campus tour guides like yes, it was funny because that's so very much what it's like to be touring economy. They're all home Trey, like, kind of check in here like this. Really annoying optimism and happiness in some ways. But yeah, you can talk like that characters passionate. There's, there's even like, manufactured essence to it, where it's like they've been told to talk like that it just like it's perfect all the way around. So after that distillation process, I feel that really helps with this one of being able to figure out like what's important, how would they react to it? And then just keep going?

Molly Geoghegan 38:13

Yeah, completely, completely agree. Yeah, it's fun to see like, weird and different worlds, recreated in like high school settings, the college setting the office setting, so it's like, you got to be relatable. And those are always like, some of the most fun comparisons is like how do monsters send a fax or something? Right? Like, is it the same fax machine? Which is funny in of itself? Or is it like this whole new like, little tool they have and there's just fun new parts to it. That's world building. Really cool. Okay, so number 16. What are the stakes give us reason to root for the character? What happens if he doesn't succeed? stack the odds against him? So yeah, again, problem, problems to stack against your character to make sure it's like all that more exciting to get to their goal, which again, is what challenge is build to, but the stakes, like what are they in it for? Like, what's their mission? I had a screenwriting professor I think I've said this to where she just basically said, like, any script can often be distilled down to or, like, you know, you want it to be compelling for your character is that a character wants something really badly and is having a hard time getting it? So like, they're trying to get into college? They're trying to, you know, escape from a beast Castle like, but then they fall in love with them like, Oh, my God, that's, that's a wrench. We didn't see coming. So, but yeah, the odds have to be against them. And that's what makes them fun to root for. Everyone loves cheering for an underdog.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 39:40

No one likes a character that has doesn't like they have some stuff like characters that get everything handed to them.

Molly Geoghegan 39:48

Yeah, that's sorry. Maybe that's why everybody hates people that don't have to work that hard for things in life because you're like, oh, it's not a good story.

39:54

Yeah, it's not.

Molly Geoghegan 39:55

It's nice. It's like well, that was boring. So absolutely. Okay. Number 17 Go for it.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 40:01

17 no work is ever wasted. And if it's not working, let go and move on. If it's useful, it'll show up again. I really liked this one.

Molly Geoghegan 40:11

I liked that too. Yeah. Why? Yeah, that's kind of like Tila, when when she was talking about the DVD bonus stuff like that doesn't have to be wasted like this can all be this is all part of the journey to get there. Don't throw it away. Keep it in. I love seeing you guys's working files, you guys meeting designers. And because when you zoom out and you see the big thing, there's often like all these little brainstorm mood boardy things that you have off to the side that you've pulled into, like what you're actually working in. And that's such a visual way to like, think about what comes into a story what comes into a presentation and what you need to be like pulling out taking in pulling out taking in. And yeah, I like to let go and move on. If it's not working. Try something new.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 40:51

Yeah. And it makes work more efficient. I think we're working on like a presentation, because they can get really long. Like hundreds of slides.

Molly Geoghegan 41:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So much, so much. Yeah, so much context. So don't expect to just get from beginning to end quickly. Like just keep keep at it. Yeah. And you see that in Pixar. I mean, I would imagine anytime they make sequels, they've been using ideas from the past as well. So I, you could always do a sequel, there's always a sequel available, or before a prequel or a prequel? Seeing that more and more. Yeah, or a remake? Totally. So yeah. All right, number 18. You have to know yourself and know the difference between doing your best and being fussy. Story is testing not refining. So I, I'm reading this again. So like the third or fourth time and the last few days. And I think this is another perfectionism kind of piece of advice where you can just be fussy and have all the pieces be perfect right away, you're not going to be because ultimately whatever you put out, there will be some pieces will resonate with people and some pieces won't. And that's all about story testing. And like, you'll get some kind of feedback. It'll do however good at the box office. And yeah, you essentially have to put it out there to really be like, that's, that's my best for now. And don't be overly fussy.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 42:17

Yeah, I mean, you always have to start from somewhere and nine times out of 10. It's, it's not going to be any good. When you start.

Molly Geoghegan 42:24

Yeah. For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good life advice to thanks, Emma. Alright, number 19. Go ahead.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 42:32

19. coincidences that get characters into trouble are great coincidences that get them out of it is just cheating.

Molly Geoghegan 42:43

To see you and the bullies, I think Cohen's like I'm thinking of a bully character. They get coincidences that get them out of stuff. And that makes them a character that you're like, Oh, God, that sucks. Because they didn't deserve it. Or, you know, they deserve this. And so I think you can use that in both ways, right? Keep those bizarre things coming. The, like random obstacles for your characters. It's important. Okay, number 20? Is exercise. Take the building blocks of a movie you dislike? How would you rearrange them into something you do? Like? So this is such a good kind of like what you said earlier about, like, if you don't know, if you're stuck, and you don't know what to do, what's not going to happen, what's definitely not going to happen. And you're like, at a point where you're like, Well, I didn't like this part of this movie, but like, how would I have done it better? And you're either gonna get some kind of inspiration from that. Or you're gonna like, end up with a new idea where you can kind of move you past where you're going. Right? So I think that's such a that's such a cool exercise. I've never have you ever done anything like that with design, like, being like, Oh, I hated this logo. Here's how I would have done it. Yeah, I see that on Instagram and social media sometimes, right?

Asha Alaji-Sharif 43:46

Yeah. And that's something actually our professors would have us do a lot. They would take something and they're like, you know, make this better. thing it's even better than trying to come up with something off the top of your head. So yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 43:58

absolutely something I love to follow on. Tik Tok in social media is people fans making their own art for me like music artists and for merch because sometimes merch can be so lame. And I love seeing like a fans take on something using lyrics or emit like visual references to like what their lyrics are speaking to such cool interpretations like and I love being able to buy concert merch but if I don't like it, I can I can I want to let go supporting artists that's made their own thing kind of cool. Sure. And I wonder Yeah, I'd love to know like, hopefully we get to talk to a Pixar creator wonder if anyone's like, done that. Exactly. Sounds like Emma might have been. Yeah, really interesting.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 44:37

We can do that with presentations a lot to like designing presentation because usually you're taking something that already exists. Okay, prove this, which I've always found to be way easier than somebody being like, Okay, here's what I want now make it happen. Absolutely. The visuals already kind of there. So let me so easier to pull something out of that.

Molly Geoghegan 44:57

Some of the work is done for you like that. No eliminates blank page syndrome too. Yeah. All right. Go ahead with number 21. We're almost to the last two here. All right.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 45:07

21. Identify with your situations and characters don't write cool. What would make you act that way?

Molly Geoghegan 45:16

Yeah, I think this really relates to her earlier point, which is number 15, which is if you were your character in the situation, how would you feel? So again, adding some humaneness to it? Like, what? Like, you gotta identify a little bit and like, Yeah, put yourself in their little toy story cowboy boots? And why Yeah, what would make you act that way, or like your personality, you could identify like, could be really different than the character. So that could be a point to work from to is like, well, this person can act this way. And I would have done this, but they're way more hot headed. So they're gonna be mad and like, react in this big way. So that's important to include. And consider,

Asha Alaji-Sharif 45:51

definitely, and it's something to that I think you can help can help with like presenting things and trying to pitch something is kind of identifying with the people in the room, because people in the room could be totally different than you. Or even you're watching to me like Shark Tank, like the sharks, they don't usually need your product, you know, like their target market. Yeah. So it's like, put it in the shoes of somebody that has nothing to do with this and see what they would think about it.

Molly Geoghegan 46:15

Yeah, absolutely. I'm thinking of like audience first messaging to, like you can be, it's a good way to kind of critique your own work and be like, Well, what might they be skeptical about, that I'm presenting here? Or what they might be like, you know, how are they would they be feeling about receiving this new way of doing things, this new product, this new, whatever, and identifying this new world and understanding that there's be some like resistance with that? So how would you act if you remember at the audience with like, what you're presenting, and what would put you over the edge and convince you to like, join in and join along and be kind of bought in? So it's a good way to kind of buy in yourself? Yeah. Okay. Finally, number 22. Of the 22 rules of storytelling from Pixar, is putting it on paper only allows you to start fixing it. If a perfect idea stays in your head, you'll never share it with anyone. Get it out there. People publish press print, you gotta like, let people see your stuff. And you got to work stuff together, and you got to collaborate. Otherwise, you'll just be stuck in rough draft mode forever. So ever and ever. And there would never be movies or books or anything if anyone didn't just be like, Alright, it's done. I can't be firstly, and it's as best as I'm gonna get it to the goal that I needed to achieve. And let's go right.

47:30

You never know.

Molly Geoghegan 47:31

That's great presentation advice. Truly. Yeah, I absolutely struggle with perfectionism. So this is such a good list once I didn't when I initially read it over. I'm like, yeah, yeah, this is like normal stuff, normal stuff. But it's great to have the context of from a Pixar writer because these are such grand like sweeping stories, big world, big characters and big journeys. So it's fun to imagine someone doing these really basic things to be like, Ha, I need like a new character, I need a new plot point that's like going to prevent them from this or like, reveal this, this emotional component that we haven't talked about yet. And so it's fun to imagine like how all of these things truly like yeah, movies, books, presentations, any kind of pitch deck like really does share these kinds of building blocks and you can learn from so much so yes, these are everywhere. 22 rules of storytelling from Pixar, so much to be learned. We love doing this. Thank you so much for joining Emily and Asha. I think it's time to open up the spice cabinet real fast before we go. And is there I love to know Yeah, so we heard about some favorite movies but I would love to know if you had to play a Pixar or Disney song as you're walking out on stage for a presentation what would it be not on the spot at all I

Asha Alaji-Sharif 48:48

got to have mine I'd pick nobody like you buy for town from turning red.

Molly Geoghegan 48:56

You never know oh my mind actually pulled up legitimately I want to look it up watch turning red and inside out those are my two tops after recording with you guys. This was my two

Emily Pantoja 49:16

required reading and watching Okay, okay good. Great.

Molly Geoghegan 49:22

All right, Emily, what about you? Have

Emily Pantoja 49:23

you had enough time to think I have an it it's very different than my normal walkout music would be but I love it so much. Married life from up which is the music right at the first montage. Everyone's like the fact that

Molly Geoghegan 49:46

did editing. Yeah. Yeah, I totally. It's such a sweet little tune.

Emily Pantoja 49:52

Maybe maybe specifically, just the beginning part of it. Maybe not when it goes to doo doo doo doo doo

Molly Geoghegan 50:01

Yeah, just the beginning. You can't you can't bring people all the way there.

Emily Pantoja 50:05

When they're like working on their house and fixing it up where it's just like, it's the brevity, the lightness, the so. The warmth all makes me feel

Molly Geoghegan 50:17

amazing pick amazing pack. Yeah. And I again want to plug the hall. I guess I have to pick huh. I was like, I almost escaped that. Usually I don't do the walkout song with people. But this is the Disney special. I am such a big my dad's name is Woody. And I'm a big Toy Story fan. When I was little I wrote a whole story about my stuffed animals coming to life and talking. And so and I still have it in every reading is absolutely hilarious. It was about a girl with curly haired named Mary. So you know, it was it was me. I like to think of it as a crossover between like Eliza Thornbury and toys or the Wild Thornberrys in Toy Story, because it was very much like, I can talk to toys and animals. Oh, that was the story. I know. So I am gonna pick the you've got a friend of me. You gotta read. Because I just think that's a sweet like upbeat, really wholesome. James Taylor moment. So yeah,

Emily Pantoja 51:15

it matches you perfect. Yeah, so that's

Molly Geoghegan 51:19

what a very wholesome All right, thank you so much. You guys. I want to also plug again, Matthew lon amazing Pixar animator, we talk all about his talk storytelling in business, which will link in the spice cabinet on episode 19. Any other fun Pixar resources or storytelling resources you guys have ever used that you want to throw out there for the presentation nation?

Asha Alaji-Sharif 51:38

Oh, actually, yes. So there's these books that I've been collecting. And they're called, like the art of so it'll be like different Pixar movies or different animated films. And it'll basically show you kind of like the process of, like, conceptualization, some storyboarding, and like, maybe how some characters look before it was revised. But it's like, it's just a really cool resource for when you're trying to figure out how to get a story started.

Molly Geoghegan 52:03

I love that. Okay, very cool. The art

Emily Pantoja 52:06

will link those as well. Yeah, and I would just I would highly recommend whenever possible. Now that streaming is a thing. It's usually like the special edition or something to that effect, but get the version of the movies that has the behind the scenes, the special features. Yes, there are oftentimes like specially Monsters Inc, I have the collector's edition where there's like two separate discs for

Molly Geoghegan 52:32

behind the scenes. So fun,

Emily Pantoja 52:34

but highly recommend getting those especially if you are a creative a storyteller or writer, they always include great interviews and great capturing of their creation process and it's it's so fun to see you can hear from the voice actors, how they brought life to their character, how they feel, how the animators feel how the writers producers it's just it's so fun to learn the whole way around how something was created.

Molly Geoghegan 53:05

I kind of miss having like a DVD just like you know where to like because there's behind the scenes content all over the internet for any movie you could find interviews whatever, but you have to like go find it so just being able to have it on a DVD or like a kind of a set yeah if it's a special edition by non Amazon or video or whatever it is but yeah, if you're a creative any kind that's a great place for inspiration so great plug

Emily Pantoja 53:27

Yeah, I can probably recite at this point. branching out back into Disney from Pixar, since they're part of the same company now. Like the Lilo and Stitch behind the scenes. Yeah. Oh, of how they even did the rotoscope animation of the hula dancers and they excitable real allows in to dance for them and get the fingers just right. And

Molly Geoghegan 53:51

yeah, that's pretty magical. Yeah, magical stuff. I know animation is truly magic. It's incredible. Absolutely.

Asha Alaji-Sharif 53:59

Spark shorts on Disney. Plus, they're like little short films, like up and coming, storytellers and animators do like I think some of them are series too, but they're like 1015 minutes. But those kind of dig into some like heavy stuff. So

Molly Geoghegan 54:13

right but cool to see like, yeah, short films are such good places to get inspiration. Sometimes. I love I used to be such a big Oscars buff, and now I like it. But it's I'm not quite as obsessed. But something that I think is always fascinating to go watch the shorts, like, especially if you don't have time to commit to a whole movie, but you want to get inspired and see something that's getting recognized and the shorts are absolutely animated short and the real life short. Really.

Emily Pantoja 54:39

Isn't the elevator pitch for fix child the

Molly Geoghegan 54:44

for sure. Well, thank you guys for joining any excuse to talk about Pixar. So much fun. And I hope I hope you find it useful and we'll have to find another excuse again soon. So keep on pitching and thanks for joining us