Episode 60: Leading with empathy - with CMO Jen Jones

Michael Mioduski 00:21

Molly, let's give them something to talk about. How about Jen Jones? Welcome back to presentation thinking aka the storyteller Study Club, aka, Molly, this is gonna be a fun one.

Molly Geoghegan 00:32

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, another once upon a time with a product marketing manager we love and are putting on a pedestal or who knows? Yeah. Who is it this time? Yeah.

Michael Mioduski 00:43

Jen Jones is a professional marketer, and one of the smartest people and brightest amazing leaders, we know who, you know, we've been able to work with at ghost ranch communications, on some cool projects over the years and have really seen gotten to just witness this trajectory, going from product marketer, as you said to Director of Product Marketing, you know, VP of marketing to CMO, Chief Marketing Officer at some really cool companies. She's sort of that person who, as you'll see, in this interview, we had a chance to to interview Jen for the product marketing life podcast, through the product marketing Alliance, which is great. And I think the reason Molly we love product marketers in general is because they're those business to business, like marketers, often who really understand the importance of storytelling. And so many of them are the ones who are creating presentations that have to be delivered by like a field of of sellers. And so it's really cool. Like, we meet so many of them who just tend to geek out with us about slides and about presentation design and stuff. And so, I think over the years, we've just developed this like love bond with product marketers. And so it was really cool to talk to Jen, who's lived and breathed. Product Marketing has made it to that as far as you can get as a marketer, as that Chief Marketing Officer role, and still has that fondness for product marketing or product marketing manager. For those who don't know, like, they throw around acronym like a PMM, which stands for Product Marketing Management. And that was something that I had to pick up over the years, I had no idea what they were talking about, you know, because there's product managers, there's product marketing managers, there's there's all sorts of jargon right? In the in the b2b space, as you know, Molly, but yeah, I was just like a really fun Convo forgot what you asked me, but I think we're gonna hash up this, this interview and just pull out some of our favorite quotes from from Jane along the way.

Molly Geoghegan 02:37

Yeah, I think this is such a cool space to be and we feel lucky that they're in our orbit. It's cool to see people like Jen, who have been in it for a long time still get excited about everything that they do and how it's evolving and how visual storytelling plays a big part. And she talks about some keys to her success and how it might help you do so yeah, we're gonna tell it like we did a similar episode with SDN if you've listened. And so we're going to be taking you on this journey and then sampling in the amazing, Jim's have quotes from her interview with Mikey on marketing life. So if you really liked this episode, go on over to Product Marketing life and listen to the full thing. Yeah, every hero has an origin story, Mikey. And that's right. But we need to hear how Jin originally fell into product marketing.

Michael Mioduski 03:26

That's a great segue. Let's let's hear about her background, because it was certainly a very interesting one.

Jen Jones 03:33

Yeah, I think like many marketing leaders, oh, that's not true. I think some sort of had that vision in mind, but many of us didn't. And it's sort of the career that I never knew existed, right. I was a neuroscience major in college. So I was in like the basement laboratory doing like pipette experiments and things like that. So completely different. And then it was really just facing graduation and really needed to be done with school for a little bit. And it was sort of right at the late nineties.com Boom, days before the bus days came about shortly after. And I moved out to Silicon Valley and got a job in what marketing at Sun Microsystems, and it was, you know, marketing and technology. It was just not a field I even knew existed when I was studying in school. So I consider myself really lucky, because I found something that I loved from the beginning and really sort of made my way around the marketing department. Early in my career, I worked. I said, I started in web marketing. I worked in programs I worked in comms and brands and events and customer marketing and did all the pieces and then finally, after a few years, you know, over a decade into my career made the jump over to product marketing because it was the one area that I hadn't done yet and I wanted to give that a try. And it was almost like I saved the best for last. So that was really, I loved product marketing more than anything. And then after that I got my first role versus SV. P of marketing decision where I was running the whole department. And then later on got my first cmo role.

Molly Geoghegan 05:07

My gate How strong is neuroscience Product Marketing pipeline? Do you think?

Michael Mioduski 05:12

The pathway to take? Yeah, like I tell everyone, if you want to go into product marketing, you got a pen neuroscience major, yeah. iPads, this one hit home with me, because I'm a huge fan of like a liberal arts education. And I think Jen did go to like, kind of a small liberal arts school. And then just like the whole, like, start broad, and then kind of hone in on what you want to do. And I think what appealed to me about her story was like, A, I also didn't know much about like tech, or marketing or advertising until like, oh, like when I finally like, caught wind of it after college basically as like, snap, this is what I've been searching for. And so it sounds like she had that broad foundation of like, learning how to think and learning how to ask questions. And, and, you know, I assume like conduct experiments, you know, that's hand in hand with what great marketers do is testing stuff, seeing what works, and then having like, sort of these scientific hypotheses, and like, hey, let's test it out. Right. So I think I love the foundation. And I love then the fact that she didn't find product marketing right away. In fact, she did a tour de marketing, like, did every possible sounds like job in b2b marketing and tech, and then eventually found her love for product marketing, which, as we learned later, is like, pulls at every little department of an organization. So yeah, what about you? What hit with you?

Molly Geoghegan 06:37

Yeah, I really like that. I'm a huge believer in that whatever job or any experience, really you have, does help you in some capacity in the future. And I think it's just really interesting for people to try out different things, see what works and what doesn't, and then how that ends up helping you later on. So I think it's a perfect example of that. And as we find out, she obviously, you know, if not a neuroscience expert, she becomes an expert in product marketing, and set us up for the second quote, Mikey, I wasn't really sure when I first heard listen to you guys's interview, I didn't know what this was. Exactly. So I want to set everyone up for success here. One is a battle card. Oh, yeah,

Michael Mioduski 07:15

a battle card. I didn't know what this was until I started working closely with tech product marketers. And learning that these are the people who create messaging that communicates how end users can benefit from using a tech product, like Oracle Marketing Cloud, that's who you know, was our client at the time when we met Jen. And so she came to us one day, with a request for to beautify. And like really optimize the format of this battle card in a battle card is sort of like a one page or two pager like front and back arsenal, or like repository of messaging like that a seller could use in a given conversation, they could look at it. And if their customer asks a certain question, there's probably that question written out on the battle card, and they can flip it over and look in like, this is how I should respond. So it's like a training tool for sales enablement. And it's not a request that we get a lot to help design these. And so that's what stood out to me about Jen that I wanted to ask her like, this is an internal piece, most marketers or CFOs are gonna be like, Why are you spending money on design for something that's internal facing? Right? So I just wanted to pick Jen's brain about that. Yeah, Sarah.

Jen Jones 08:31

You know, as product marketers, we give so much to the sales team. And just having a little bit of empathy of how much information we're asking them to consume to remember, while they're managing their territories and working deals and nurturing new opportunities and closing things or renewing customers, they have a lot on their plate. And then here comes product marketing with hey, here's a new competitive update, I want you to remember. And for the salespeople that may not be relevant to their current quarter, maybe they're not against that competitor, currently, but they will be later on, right, we know that marketing, so we want them to be prepared. So I think it comes from a standpoint of having some empathy, that it's easier for people to retain and learn new information, when it's a very consistent, Clear Format. And I think that's where good design can really come into play. And using that battle card example, we've all seen terrible examples of battle cards, where like, the font is eight points. And you know, on this competitor, the first side is all about, you know, what their, what our benefits are against them, or how we beat them. But then on this other one, we have a completely different format, because we have their latest media clips. And you know, there's no there's no consistency there. So I think if you can create internal materials for your sales team, where they always know if I go to the page to on the top, right, that's where I'm gonna get my top three key points. And it just makes it easier to consume to remember, we're not asking them to remember facts we're asking them to remember format, and have it at their fingertips for when they need it. So I think that's an example of where good design can and really help make complex and volumous information more consumable.

Molly Geoghegan 10:06

We're not asking them to remember facts, we're asking them to remember format. I love that. And I think this is a great example of like Jen really has, she's done sales. And she knows she's been in those people's shoes. And so you can tell she really goes to bat for her team here, where she's trying to make these internal pieces of communication as easy and as like as efficient and useful as possible. And with this next, we could maybe just jump into it, because with this next little quote here, you know, she tells that she lets us know, like, I think you asked something along the lines of how do you know when this is successful? And, yeah, let's hear it.

Jen Jones 10:39

So we had this go presentation template, and one of the sales VPS came back to me and said, I love that template. So much, it was so fun to use. And I kind of like laughed and wrote that down. It's something I had to keep with me, because how often do you hear that PowerPoint presentation is fun to use? Right. But I think that's an example of where, again, like good design, consistency and good planning and thinking about the details can make the overall experience with so much better for your internal teams.

Michael Mioduski 11:10

Yeah, so still along the lines of consistency, and then you know, like, again, why would you pay and invest your designers time and this sales kickoff, presentation, look and feel the visual storytelling? Like, why does that matter? And again, I think most conventional wisdom says, No, we're not going to pay for that. But Jen sees it as this ability to get people excited internally. And it's like, memorable, right? Like, who comes out is like, yeah, even though that was an internal es que yo, I loved playing with those slides, I loved creating those presentations. And what also stood out, you know, along the lines of the consistency, and her self awareness about, hey, we know we're giving, you know, product marketing and marketing, we're giving sales, a lot of stuff to us, and a lot of stuff to remember. So along the lines of like, the formatting the consistency, it does take, like really good planning. And I think like knowing, so instead of sort of the running gun pay, we're going to create this briefing this week and ship it to sales, I think, her longer outlook and saying like, alright, let's package this up, let's think through this whole bundle that we're going to enable them with, and what consistencies should they have across the board? So that yeah, they can start to learn that format over, you know, the facts that she's like,

Molly Geoghegan 12:25

totally. And I think, yeah, as she said, like, hearing that PowerPoint is fun to use something that's easy and not intimidating, or annoying to deal with. It's such a good sign of that. And it makes so much sense. And then I'm, you know, that's definitely a sign of success. But I'm wondering what she thinks makes a good PM, from doing these things for their teams from different dudes than from a great one. And I think that's what you asked her next.

Jen Jones 12:49

Yeah, it is a really, it's a notoriously hard role to hire. And I can tell you from my, my peer network, we talked about that a lot. It's hard to find great product marketers. And I think when you look at the individual, contributor level and product marketing, you tend to find people who are either great at the working with the sales team side, they're great at making sales presentations and sales tools. And doing that competitive work and objection handling and working one on one or one to many with the sales teams, like they really get that seller's perspective. And they're great at creating messaging and all that work. And then you tend to get people who are more technical, and are really good at working with product management and talking to engineering in meaningful ways. Working with the analysts like they get that more technical side of the house. And people tend to come into product marketing from one side or the other. And they start from one position of strength. And I think that the best product marketers are the ones that can always have one foot in both worlds, where if they started on a more technical track, they really learn they spend time out in the field, they really learn how to work with sellers, if they came up through more of a sales or traditional marketing track. They spend time with engineering, sit there, listen to the technical customer calls sit through implementations. And so to me, the best absolute best product marketers and I think a requirement to be a product marketing leader, you have to be able to walk in both of those tracks. And it's not easy for people to do not a lot of people can flip and sit on both sides of that.

Molly Geoghegan 14:22

In my notes, I wrote something about product marketers leaving Hannah Montana double lives. Yeah, and I don't remember writing that down, but it resonates right. sides of the drag.

Michael Mioduski 14:33

Oh, yeah. I mean, I can shout out so many of our favorite product marketers over the years. Kayla shout out April shatta. Like most of them didn't start in Product Marketing. I know a friend of mine. Kayla started in sales and customer service worked in every other spectrum of an a tech startup before really finding her groove in product marketing and go to market strategy specifically. I think it's big Cause she worked on the front line in sales. And then had this yearning to learn more about the tech as like, especially working in customer support customer service. And even in product at some point, like, those people who flip around the org are the ones who who just like kind of click because they get it, they, they understand the needs of sellers, they understand the desires of product. And then they they help be that liaison and almost like the mediator of sorts to help everybody work together. Because there's a lot of conflicting and competing, like interests, I guess. But the PMMs like, sort of like, Alright, what's good for revenue, what's good for the org? And they kind of figured out how to how the product, the tech stuff, and how the sells, like messaging stuff, marketing stuff, can all work toward the same goal, I guess.

Molly Geoghegan 15:47

Yeah. And when we're talking about like, the ecosystem of the organization, there's also the CMO, the chief marketing officer, and I'm curious, like, yeah, what Jen thinks of like, what the role of a CMO is and how to be a good CFO.

Michael Mioduski 16:00

I thought it was funny when she said, careful what you wish for, because I've seen a few you will, you'll hear it. But yeah, let's, let's hear what what the day in the life of a chief marketing officer is.

Jen Jones 16:11

Yeah, I think the role of CMOS is always evolving, right? And you read these splashy articles, click Beatty articles that are Oh, is the CMO role going away? Or it's being, you know, buried? And I don't, I don't think that's true. I don't buy into that. I mean, certainly you'll find examples of companies where that's the choice they've made for their own reasons. But ultimately, I think it's a really important role that if anything has elevated over the last 10 years, I think you'll see more CMOS having a legitimate seat at the executive team table, where before CMOS would often be buried, a few layers down. And now I think most CMOs are reporting directly to the CEO and part of that broader business management team. I think you're seeing more and more CMOS go on to become CEOs, which is an unusual path years ago. And now I think businesses are seeing that brand is so key, and everything you do, whether you're b2b or b2c, and ultimately marketing, and CMOs are the ones that know how to deliver that, that storytelling messaging, who are we all of that stuff can be really important, not just to your customers, but also when you're talking to investors, whether public or private. So cmo candidates, somebody from a CMO background that does have that strong operational thence, I think, can be a really great, you know, you see people going on to CEOs. And you're also seeing CMOS becoming more attractive for board candidates as well for those same reasons. So I think it's become much more elevated. The other side of that is there's much higher demand to not just be great at marketing, but also that operational piece, really understanding corporate finance, and getting into the nitty gritty there. Being a partner to your CFO, not an adversary, all of these things are really, really key, I think, to being like a modern type of CMO.

Molly Geoghegan 18:00

So Mikey, Jen Jones works for commerce tools. Yeah. And what kind of company is that provides a service? It is

Michael Mioduski 18:08

a, it's an software's a service, e comm. Space? How are you gonna put me on the spot? Yeah. I know everything about commerce tools

Molly Geoghegan 18:18

are great. But yeah, like, there's Yeah, with this brand. Yeah, they have to create and sell their own story. And I like this, this piece where she comes back to like, it's really gets back to the marketing team. And that is that involves the PMs, the CMOS, everybody. And the sales folks that are I suppose that's translated to the sales folks, I think sometimes sales is peripherally involved. But they have to tell the story. And that is such an important part of it. And so we get to hear a little bit more of how she's done that for commerce tools.

Jen Jones 18:48

Yeah, there's so much going on. It's definitely an exciting time to be there. I think coming from a product marketing background, one of the things that I realized and got me excited and sort of brought me over to commerce tools in the first place was it's it's a product that has just amazing product market fit, like nothing I've ever seen, right? And as product marketers when we're looking at messaging and positioning and you know, sometimes that work is a little harder than it needs to be. And they're walking into commerce tools. It's like, just a dream of timing. It's a market that is ripe for disruption needs a new way of doing things. And by the way, we have this amazing answer. So storytelling is something I'm really excited about for this year. We've traditionally spoken well with our technical champions, and we'll of course continue to do that. But we're very technical product. And what I'm excited about now is translating that similar business benefits for our business users. How having the right technical backbone for your E commerce system can really translate into direct business results like revenue uplift or you know faster time to market and things that as business leaders and marketers especially really care about So that's a story I'm excited to expand on until this year with product marketing and the rest of the team at Commerce tools. Right? Yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 20:08

yeah, they had just I know, and you'll have to go and listen to the full episode to hear this, but they had just done a cool ad with like, will our net right, you know, and so that's like, really unexpected in that, like, saps SES as space. Yeah, it is. So it is, I think that's awesome. Like, yeah, she's just gotten to be really creative and help craft that story. And, again, obviously, leaning on visual storytelling, we love that. So cool to hear.

Michael Mioduski 20:32

Yeah, that reminds me of sort of the is a Tamsin Webster talks about like being that human to human English English translator, you know, in this case, very technical product. I love that about just marketers in general, like, how do we put this in a way that actually resonates with XYZ persona, this audience and the product, the packaging, the positioning? Yeah, just, and then delivering it in a way that is more memorable and standout ish. That's exciting to hear from Jen. And I can't wait to see what they're doing this year. You know, to live up to that.

Molly Geoghegan 21:08

And from a career or professional navigation standpoint, you know, Jen had some advice to share as far as like moving through navigating this career and how to lean on your people like your network. So what does she have to say about building a network and leaning on.

Jen Jones 21:25

But it's really important to to have a network that is above you, and have a good network of mentors and peers, so that you have someone that you can bounce ideas off of. So I had to sort of go back and scramble and create that which which I was able to do. But, you know, in hindsight, I think that's something I would have spent some more time on earlier. Yeah, it's hard to do. Right. And I think some people are naturally good at it and really good at I guess for me, the hard part was always feel like I was asking someone if something some something of someone rather asking for somebody's time asking for a favor. And one of the things I've really learned is that mentor mentee relationships are best when they're a two way street. Now, as a mentor, when we get things from our mentees as well, right, we learn a lot. And it needs to be both ways. So looking at it from a mentee perspective, and realizing that I had something to bring to the table too, and finding those relationships where it is a two way street.

Michael Mioduski 22:23

I like the point about the peers and maintaining those relationships, I know of those marketers that Jen kind of came up with, like, she's not the only one who's risen to like, some pretty awesome spots at some really cool companies. And so it is, you know, as the saying goes, it's like, business is sort of a small, small world, and you're gonna cross paths with people down the line. And maintaining that ability to keep your, your network, it's kind of engaged in like it just like, keep learning from each other and stay in touch, right? It's easy to get more insulated, and you know, you, you start to go work at a big company, you only start to talk to people at those company. And before you know it, you've kind of lost touch with people from the outside and that outside way of thinking. And so I think I really loved not only thinking about mentors and mentees, but like just staying up to date and letting your peer network not letting that go to the to the wayside. Totally,

Molly Geoghegan 23:18

you can learn something from anyone, you can learn something from the grocery store checkout person, right. i She really advocates for being like a continuous learner too. And she shares about like, yes, sitting down with all of your teams, knowing all the facets of what's going on, so that you don't get like left behind, and then become that leader. That's super siloed. Right. So she had a great piece of advice on that too. Let's Let's tune in.

Jen Jones 23:41

Like I said, I love product marketing. I think it's such a great place to be regardless of what your career if you if you know where you want to be, that's great. But if you're sort of like me, where I was always the eternal eyes wide open optimist, like all the possibilities in the world, it's hard for me to pick a career path. Product Marketing is such a great place to be because you're really at the center of everything that your organization's doing. And just keep reaching out and learning like across the org spend time with all the other teams like the more you learn about what other people in the company do, the more effective you'll be.

Michael Mioduski 24:11

The more effective you'll be totally reach out. People help people right don't be shy. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. Just let whatever Jen says do it in that

Molly Geoghegan 24:20

voice. Always be learning, you know? Yeah. Yeah, so go tune in if you liked this if you're intrigued, and if you find yourself at all in Jen shoes or someone in her team shoes, definitely head over to Product Marketing life and tune into this episode because Mikey and Jen have done a great job. So it was really fun to share here too, and follow her hero's journey. I know one of our product marketing heroes

Michael Mioduski 24:46

that she is. Yeah, and she might have had my favorite walkout song pick ever. Metallica is Ride the Lightning? Yes. Awesome. super hype, hype. Throwback I love it

Molly Geoghegan 25:00

very metal, we need to have a little more. Yeah, a little more hardcore in the pm space. Yeah, totally. And as professional and as experienced as Jen was, I did love that she just is humble. And it's good to know that your hair was started somewhere. So knowing that she started in sales will close us out with a beautifully worded quote, she shared about her experience.

Jen Jones 25:26

Well, I'll say I first started out thinking I would go into sales, and I cried every day, it was terrible. I'm a terrible salesperson. So I that's probably why I have so much empathy and respect for the salespeople I work with so definitely not sales.

Michael Mioduski 25:44

Yeah, we asked if she could, if she had to go back and couldn't use product marketing or marketing, what career choice would she pick? Yes, you quickly ruled that one out.

Molly Geoghegan 25:54

Yeah. And if you've been, you know, longtime fan of Mike Unitas podcast, we used to have one called come sell away talking about shaking off the slimy sales feeling and dealing with like, I'm in sales, but I'm a terrible salesperson. So it's, it's hard that hits hard.

Michael Mioduski 26:11

Yeah, like, but as we've learned, Molly, like everybody pitches, right. Like we have had to come to terms with that ourselves. Whether or not you did spend some time on like, as a bizdev rep or something like that, the quicker you can come to terms with the fact that our ideas don't sell themselves. I have to learn how to pitch this a certain way. That's very important. And it sounds like yeah, Jen had to had to learn the hard way, like through actual selling. But I often regret like that I didn't do an actual sales job. Like earlier in my, in my days, because I think the people I've met who've done that got to, to really feel what that's like, but also like, developed a little bit of a thicker skin. And maybe just like, they got to demystify it a little bit too. And they're like, you know, it's a living. And it's just like, you know, I can play the game, right. And so I've, yeah, it's fun to meet people who've done that, I think I think they've got a unique perspective.

Molly Geoghegan 27:05

And I never am surprised. Sometimes I'm surprised but I'm usually unsurprised when someone tells me that they have a sales background. I'm like, Oh, I can hear that in your voice. There's like a certain edge certain competence. A certain like, you shouldn't be sick. Why? Like they can really think on their feet. And yeah, they're not gonna if they can't take no for an answer, then they have another idea for right at the same time. So I really appreciate that.

Michael Mioduski 27:25

Molly, did you ever do like door to door knife sales? Or? You did Girl Scout cookies, right?

Molly Geoghegan 27:29

I mean, yeah, Girl Scout cookies, for sure. I was pretty, pretty gung ho on getting the stuffed animal prize every year for that. How

Michael Mioduski 27:36

many boxes did you have to sell for that?

Molly Geoghegan 27:37

I don't remember. But definitely like, and they're expensive now. So I think I want to say it's close to like, 100, you had to get to the more I felt lucky, you know, I would like be like dad take my form to work. And like, are you take me and he's against this factor. Kids can sell things. That's a whole nother topic and of itself. But I have done door to door fundraising and trying to hit a fundraising goal each night. And that is super stressful, but a really similar setup to sales. And when we've talked to door to door, folks, and that experience is so similar, where if someone starts to say this thing, there's a pathway you take to be like, yes, you're acknowledging my say, and you're also directing them to new path and new ask and you always name something really high, right? And like, let them let them kind of weasel around it and you're like, Okay, well, this could actually buy a whole week's worth of classes and programming. And yeah, it's a it's an interesting world.

Michael Mioduski 28:28

It is. Molly, this is this has been fun. Listener. If you are here for the first time, check out ghost ranch communications, ghost ranch.com. Maybe you are suddenly inspired to make a better looking battle car to enable your field. More exciting presentations, right, that people are going to talk about. That's what we do. Check out ghost ranch.com. And hey, you know what, Molly, keep on pitching.

Molly Geoghegan 28:51

Yeah. Don't forget to leave her review presentation nation. If you've been here for more than two episodes on Spotify, you can leave a review there. And any episodes if you'd listened all the way through here. You can go over to Apple podcasts and leave a review to your right.

Michael Mioduski 29:02

Yeah, thanks again. See you next again. Thanks to Jen. Awesome fun talking with her. Bye