Episode 38: “The Tragedy” - 7 Basic Plots (Presentation Book Club)

Michael Mioduski 00:21

Welcome back to presentation thinking, aka the storyteller Study Club, aka Mali. The dice was loaded from the start. We are talking about tragedies today. From the one and only seven basic plots why we tell stories? Yeah, that book by Christopher Booker, we are six down

Molly Geoghegan 00:44

after today's Yep, six. Yep, this is number six, Chrissy number six of seven. For the seven basic plots, why we tell stories, if you haven't read it, or if you haven't listened to the previous five episodes. This is all about Christopher Booker, a, an English journalist and novelist and who is obsessed with how storytelling worked and spent his life creating this monster book about the seven basic plots, how each story could fit into a type of flood structure. And today, we're talking about tragedy. So if you don't want to be sad, now, just kidding, we'll make this fun. It'll be we've got some dark examples for you. But you know, it's stuff that everybody knows. We're going to talk about Romeo and Juliet, we're going to talk about Bonnie and Clyde. And how this plot is actually quite similar to some other ones.

Michael Mioduski 01:35

Yeah, we are, aren't we? And Molly, I had a hard time with comedy, right? Because Chris Booker did me my expectation, you know, like, I think a comedy I want to laugh, but I obviously, I'm not well read. Like him. He was a professional reader, by the way. He, his book is just all the books. Have you ever read examples?

Molly Geoghegan 01:53

Yeah. And categorizing them, basically? And I don't know, this is a worthy exercise. Why Mikey, like for the press thinkers? Why do we why are we doing this? Yeah. Why are we doing

Michael Mioduski 02:03

this? Well, cuz if you've ever been to like a business conference or in marketing, they're always like, blah, blah, blah, storytelling, you know, blah, blah, blah. Storytelling is everything. It's so important. And I get that I think we you and I both have seen good instances of that. But I think what, where I've seen that that advice fall short is like, well, what does that even mean? Like, what do you mean, tell a story of like, and, and so I think when we when we were also looking up some cool things to do for our ghost ranch communications, our seven year anniversary, we found this like, oh, there's seven basic plots, maybe that'll help us get our heads around, you know, storytelling so that we can when we're preparing a TED talk, or presentation or helping a client prepare their presentation, we've got like, a little bit more toolkit or tool belt, crossing analogies, but like, we just want to know, like, the building blocks the foundations what's like storytelling one on one, and we thought these plot archetypes would help us if we can just at least, like get our heads around them. Right?

Molly Geoghegan 03:03

Totally. Yeah. And it goes without saying, when you're building a presentation or applying your product or service to one of these story plots, you might you definitely don't want to be the tragedy. You don't want to be the hero in here. Right. So this is a podcast on how what not to do.

Michael Mioduski 03:21

Okay. Yeah. And I do like when we once we get through it, Molly, I do want to talk about like, maybe why you would present in a tragedy plot line.

Molly Geoghegan 03:32

I'd love to hear okay. Okay, awesome. So, Christopher, if you've been listening to previous episodes has a series of stages in which these plots take place. Some of them have similar titles. But again, we've got five basic stages. And just as a quick synopsis, tragedy as percorsi B defines is where the main character makes a mistake, that causes them to fall from good fortune to despair. And the protagonist sees or you know, the hero with a major character flaw, and that makes a great mistake which ultimately their undoing it leads to ends and destruction. They're unfortunate and Vokes. Pity their folly and the fall from a font of a fundamentally good character. So

Michael Mioduski 04:12

you used five, five well known examples, these are, at least in his first breakdown of it and so one was the you know, the Greek myth, Icarus, a German legend Faust, shakey is Macbeth Jekyll and Hyde by Stevenson and Lolita by Nabokov. And yeah, it was kind of cool, like, so he will, he sets up those five stages, and then he did go through and he's right, they really all do follow these same five stages. And then in latter chapters, I mean, his tragedy section has three different chapters. He goes on and talks about even more that we know certainly, and they all do, follow this structure, which starts in stage number one, anticipation

Molly Geoghegan 04:52

anticipation. So this is the spot Mikey. This setup basically where the hero is, in some way, incomplete or unfit. Old and thoughts are turned towards the future and hope there's like a hopeful sense here. There's a lot of times like this idea of something they want to do or accomplish. And one of the first examples he uses is Macbeth. And this is when I was familiar with in my Shakespeare days of yonder. Yeah. And so Macbeth is returning from this victorious battle with someone else. I can't remember his name and quot. Yeah, bank. Well, great name. And then my next dog that and he is visited by three witches who tell him that there's a prophecy, he's going to be king. So he's like, oh, hell, yeah, things are going so good. Like, I can't wait to be king. Q, The Lion King. And so it's kind of this, you know, it moves perfectly into this next stage, which is called dream stage, where he's committed to securing that things are going almost too well, you know. And I think the first flaw right with Macbeth, I guess, in particular, is that to secure the stream, he sets about murdering the king. So like, that's not a good this. There's different ways you could have gone about it, right? But his wife straight up Lady Macbeth convinces him to murder the king. He's like, That's a great idea. That's the way it's gonna happen. And it works out perfectly. Like he set it live.

Michael Mioduski 06:18

And things are going like really well, right? Like, the dream stage is like, Hey, I think I just got away with this, you know, like, being king is pretty dope.

Molly Geoghegan 06:25

I think that's a key feeling to the dream stage is that things almost seem to be going too well, you're like, wait, what's happening? And we'll we'll go through this with a couple other examples, too. But then what happens next is that it leads to the frustration stage, where that act, the first initial act that was dark or dark Act, or a mistake that the character has made, leads into another one where someone might have found out so he's kind of killed this person. And then I forget Yeah, I'm forgetting the names of these characters. Blank

Michael Mioduski 06:54

was like, I furious that has placed most Foley you know, he's like, I'm on to you, man. I suspect maybe your king because you may be murdered the other king,

Molly Geoghegan 07:06

they'll get in perfect iambic pentameter, Mikey. Yeah. So this is just like the butterfly effect in the bad way. Right, where it's like dominant, like get a commit another murder, and then another murder. And in the body. He also goes through a Bonnie and Clyde example. Right, which is where, you know, they end up with that policeman in their possession, right? And they're, like, totally running with a hostage. And it's like, absolute chaos, right? It's just kind of becoming a snowball effect of bad acts.

Michael Mioduski 07:34

And then is that the nightmare stage like,

Molly Geoghegan 07:36

I just get totally worse and worse, and the absolute bottom of the arc, right, like where we're like, things are out of control. There's this mounting sense of threat and despair, forces of opposition and fate are closing in. And that leads us to the finale of any tragedy, which is ultimately, what usually ends in a lot of violence, right? It doesn't always like have to be necessarily death, but there it's quite frequently, death or destruction. And that's yeah, some final act of chaos. And the hero is destroyed in the end in some way. Whether or not physically the idea is destroyed as well. So of course with Macbeth, that's yeah, everyone is. Everyone dies at the end, right. Yeah.

Michael Mioduski 08:20

I'm glad that I finally did get my head around Macbeth. That is a cool story. He cites The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde. Yes. Did you know about that story

Molly Geoghegan 08:32

before? I don't know much about it. It's I should having lived in Ireland. You know, it's one of the wild famous ones, and there's a lot of cool murals about it. But no, I'm not very familiar with the story,

Michael Mioduski 08:43

man. It was pretty rad. Like, I don't want to like I'll spoil it for you because he's given us, Chris spoiler for me. But yeah, this guy is a real handsome dashing young fella, Dorian Gray, like, just the most beautiful man you've ever seen. He's everyone's to be around him and stuff. And he's basically given a prophecy by someone and to say, like, you're gonna have it all, man. So there's this like bit of temptation. And he's like, yeah, so anyway, like they paint this beautiful portrait of Dorian Gray. It which preserves him in this like, stunning vibrancy of youth, and it's the ultimate man. But there's sort of like a dark figure who tempts him with two thoughts. One is, hey, what if you could remain this beautiful, always and young? And like, he's like, that's cool. And what if you could live a life of total indulgence, and so kind of sets in, and he's focused on doing that now, right? And so that sets him off into this dream stage where he's indulging, he's living it up, but he's also leaving sort of this wake of destruction in his path. And as he does darker and darker things to people, he doesn't change because of this sort of prophecy, but he looks at the portrait, and he starts to notice like it starts to turn a little bit sour looking and like, you know, there's like a, like, the portrait starts to change. It's really trippy and then yeah, so goes on and on. And then you know, there's a, of course a death at the end. And it's, it is super tragic.

Molly Geoghegan 10:05

Yeah, yeah. And that's such a cool is like I think tragedy taps into that psychological narrative where it's like this. I'm glad you said that earlier where it's like a temptation of someone asking you like, do you want this so you could tap into this hole, it's kind of the devil on your shoulder, and there isn't much of an angel to counter it. And Christopher does say that in the second tragedy part, he says, you know, it's, it's very, it's not dissimilar to the beginning of overcoming the monster plot or the call, which if you'd listened to those two episodes, you know that there is some kind of inciting incident that sends the hero on the quest or quest call. And we are kind of in agreeance, as the audience like, this is a good thing for them to do. Whereas I think the distinct difference in the tragedy is that you're kind of have this thought like, oh, no, like, they're kind of slipping away here, right? They're letting themselves go down this, this may be dark and twisted path. They said, he says, blah, blah, blah. This is on page 173. The very difference between tragedy and other kinds of story begins with the nature of the summons, which draws them into that adventure. When the hero of an overcoming the monster story or request receives their call, however hazardous the course it opens out to him, we are no doubt it's right for them to answer it. But when the hero or heroine of a tragedy reaches the same point, we are uneasy. We are aware that the call is not the same nature, which is why it may more aptly be described as the temptation. So there's kind of like a little Adam and Eve story. Yeah.

Michael Mioduski 11:34

Yeah. And in the quests, like we know that this hero has like the will do anything to get to that end. And in the tragedy, one of the other differences he points out is like, this temptation, as opposed to the call is like, they're almost a little more wishy washy, like, Should I do it? Should I not? And then, then they finally do like, it just becomes their obsession, in a way too. And so then they do have that locked in focus. But at first, it isn't so apparent that they must pursue this they because maybe they are sort of debating with themselves like, Yeah, but I might have to kill a few people to get that thing. Whatever. You feel like naughty things. Yeah,

Molly Geoghegan 12:10

yeah, exactly. And I love the Bonnie and Clyde walking through that example, having watched that and film school, but like, in the beginning, there's this thing where Bonnie's just excited by like, the sexy crime life that Clyde Lee leads. Yeah. And we know on paper that like, okay, yeah, he this guy's a heist man, like, he's not a good guy. He's not doing good things. But we're kind of cheering for them in the beginning, because it's like cool and fun. And then it turns into this spiral domino effect where there's, like, you know, they captured the policeman that's been taking them, you know, there's frustration with their like relationship. And then they end up having like, their crimes get bigger and bigger with robbing a bank, hijacking a car, etc, etc, leading to all these things that eventually another one of the characteristics of tragedy is that the setup for these characters, the heroine, heroes, and heroines have close ties with family like, relationships in the community around them. And it's usually those ones that are broken as the story goes on. So in the story of Bonnie and Clyde, that's very apt because it's the father that ends up turning them in, like, trust, right? And so that's like, a key piece of it is that these strong bonds that are initially there, or the ones that end up being broken,

Michael Mioduski 13:22

that reminds me of like, the movie blow with Johnny Depp, and Penelope you know, in her prime, yeah, depths, you know, the hero character has a, he's like, kind of always rethinking it like he really wants it at some one point, like, all the all the money in power and everything. And then like he reconnects with his dad who's like, I think, and then he starts to rethink it. But then his mom turns him into the cops every time. He does go back to that relationship with his, with his family. And yeah, it's like a bad thing to be told totally. And deeper and deeper. It's like, yeah, there's a point where there's no return. Right? And like, that's a characteristic too.

Molly Geoghegan 13:57

Yeah, he talks about the divided self trope, where the hero has two sides to grapple with. So it's a little bit of that Jekyll and Hyde we all have like the evil and good and the tragedy plot chooses the bad right? So I love I love that as a dramatic like twist in the plot. You know, we've talked about the dark versions of previous plots where this is like yeah, the hero things go wrong. But for the tragedy specifically, it's where from the onset we know this this person set out on the path like of darkness, you know, yeah, those are those fit well with like the drug lords, the criminals, etc. Right, even if we might be cheering for them.

Michael Mioduski 14:33

And it's funny to like you mentioned the split, Romeo and Juliet, one of the most probably often cited tragedies right? And the split there it wasn't necessarily that like Romeo or Juliet like shows this evil life they their families were split right and so it could be interesting but there's there's always some level of division that does create these I guess qualms with and like some decisions that need to be made. Maybe

Molly Geoghegan 15:00

Oh, yeah, definitely I this quote on page 189, where he's talking about Romeo and Juliet is, I think, not an exception to the rule as like, well, actually what it is because he's describing the heroes the monster as, as most tragedies turnout, but with Romeo and Juliet, it's the families and the few. That's the monster. And the true tragedy is that these lovers have died for each other despite that feud. Right? Right. So he says, you know, it's not so much Romeo or Juliet themselves, who present us with the spectacle of divided self, the split lies in the great feud, dividing their two families. And the desire of the hero is not to promote conflict, but to escape from it. So in other words, the fall, which doesn't at odds with those around them, is not within them, but outside them. And so I thought maybe I made a note here, because I was like, maybe that's why Romeo and Juliet is so sad, because it's neither of the characters fault. Born into these, these feuding opposing gay family, gangster families, if you watch the Baz Luhrmann version. And so that's like this true tragedy is they? They didn't even choose that for themselves. Right. And it was just this quick mistake for Juliet's death that Romeo ends up dying as well. Yeah, totally. And what's his face? Romeo's friend that doesn't deliver the message in time that doesn't. That Friar Lawrence that created the death drug that made it appear as if she was, you know, an eternal sleep or something eternal? Tragic. So yeah, that's the true tragedy. There you go. Yeah. Is these these just petty families, but

Michael Mioduski 16:26

it was a bummer. But like, Molly, that one, at the end, you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I watched a YouTube synopsis summarized, but they're like, and in the end, the families decided to end their feud. Is that right? Yeah, like, Let's shake on it. That's a bummer that our young teenager totally died.

Molly Geoghegan 16:43

That's the thing that brought it together. Right. So it is a tragic story for the love story, but then it kind of take something that dramatic and tragic to bring the two families together. And maybe I don't know, I think that's both an exception to the rule, and maybe like this beautiful, emotive action after the fact. So maybe that's why Romeo and Juliet was especially, I don't know, resonated with a lot of the world. Yeah, yeah, you're able to kind of come to a peace after after something like that. So maybe that was like appealed to some universal emotion for folks.

Michael Mioduski 17:16

Well, I mean, Molly, do you want me to blow your mind really quick? Yeah, obviously, the origins of tragedy, the word in Greek, a scapegoat, the animal or human scapegoat was regarded symbolically carrying the sins of a tribe. So like, in their death, they're these tragedy stories, like, while the hero dies, maybe the community around them somehow find some, maybe peace, right? Or like they learned something from this. And that's where we are supposed to learn from it right, maybe. And

Molly Geoghegan 17:47

I think that's also the instance where it's like, the hero has become the monster. And so in getting rid of that idea, or their actions, or their presence that is like dark and affecting the community, or the people around them, it reaches peace, even though it's a tragic ending. It's like it reaches some kind of resolution in that way, because you had read themselves with Monster

Michael Mioduski 18:09

and then they become lessons. So it's like when I was thinking of, okay, what kind of if you were to give a presentation, like the ones I was thinking of maybe our warnings or have like, instead of chasing these earnings to any extent, we're going to learn from the lessons of tragic Greek mythology. Yeah, but like, okay, Icarus flew a little too close to the sun, right? Like, we're not going to do that we're gonna play it safe. You know, as our if this is like an investor relations type thing, whatever it's like, we know that we can learn from watching, okay, someone got a little carried away, or maybe made a unethical choice. We're going to learn from that. And so I think, I do think like, just the telling of one of these stories, weaving something in to say, like, here's an example, we're going to avoid, we can learn from this tragic outcome and do it the better way.

Molly Geoghegan 18:58

Yeah. 100%. And, also, I think, another trait that pops up all the time in the tragedy plot, is that thing of, I'm thinking of that Harry Potter in the the first Harry Potter scene where they're stuck in the IV, and the more they move, the more they're stuck in it, you know, the vines that's like coming up and strangling them, because you have to be still and just sit through it. And I think that's like, not only like the metaphorical lesson of sitting through the discomfort, but in the tragic plots. The hero keeps doing these acts that get worse and worse further, ensnaring them and into the thick of their plot in the thick of their predicaments. And so I think from a lesson with business and presenting like solutions to things, you can't just be like, frantically desperately trying to fix fix, fix, fix fix without just like, sitting in it and being like, what really needs to be addressed and maybe boiling some stuff down rather than like taking too many quick actions, rash downs or something? I love that maybe that's a stretch, but I think maybe that's the connection I'm making.

Michael Mioduski 19:57

No, I don't think so. Because sure, like the end As patients stage, maybe you were tempted and you were focused on the wrong KPI or something, you know, and you're like, Okay, it's feeling really good. We're in this dream stage right now. But before we go and kill off, like a few people to bury the evidence, let's reconsider. Maybe this isn't. Maybe this could have a tragic outcome if we're not careful. So

Molly Geoghegan 20:22

I'm thinking of moderate example that I think fits really well. And I just thought of this. So I'm gonna run with it, but is the founder I forget his name of the founder of fire fest. I watched both documentaries about this because it was fascinating, right? And I think a lot of people watched it. But this was a guy who was so motivated by money and, and fame and attention, and buries his grave as deep as possible even when there's like, there's warning signs and things being like, Hey, I think you push this I think you gotta cancel I think you got to get less people. He's like, I'm gonna call a couple of rappers I know and ask for more money actually, you know, and that just went dip further further and further down and everyone was like, we knew that path was like a bad from the get go. And it just got worse and worse and every action he took further got him down a rabbit hole and I've heard he's getting out of jail and like wants to do something similar I've like read Yeah, even like at the end of that one documentary for it was the Netflix or Hulu, please watch both are very different perspectives but the he talks about some business that he started from jail about, like getting money from people and like doing kind of cold calling weird, like investment things. I'm being like, we're gonna get you with a bunch of models and take photos and you're gonna be like an influencer? Just crazy. That's a tragic. That's a modern day tragedy.

Michael Mioduski 21:42

Yes. Yeah. I mean, think about like, yeah, Theranos Elizabeth Holmes, that stuff like we work that whole scandal, any of these things that seem maybe too good to be true. You know, take the one that fascinates me is like, what the hell is Elon Musk's story plot? Like, this is one that we who knows man is your Savior.

Molly Geoghegan 22:04

I know. He's a good embodiment. And like, obviously, depends on who you ask. But he's a good embodiment of, even if he has good intentions. Like he says he does. There's definitely this these elements of evil that he works with. He's been he was born into like, a lot of richness and wealth. And so it's not a rags to riches story at all. It's more of this, like, you are embodying both this good and evil, claiming you're doing it for good. And like, we'll wait and see. We'll see what happens. Yeah. And we're all just privy to it. You know, the man that owns Twitter? Yeah.

Michael Mioduski 22:37

Man. Yep. Right. Right.

Molly Geoghegan 22:39

So I think there's a lot to be learned from the tragedy. It's like yeah, what, how what not to do the bad rabbit hole, the dark rabbit hole to go down?

Michael Mioduski 22:46

Yeah. I mean, how do you get caught in that course of action? That just leads you to your ultimate demise? Yeah. So Molly, what was your like, take on it was it you already had some deep tragedy experience, like with your days in drama club and,

Molly Geoghegan 23:01

like, even just like in my life, it was like, totally, like, pretty tragic. I don't know. Yeah, I had done some Shakespearean theater stuff when I was younger. And I always thought that was really fun. Sometimes it's fun to just not have the always the happiest ending, right? I think that's, I always love that movie. You know, everyone was obsessed with 500 days of summer when it came out. And everyone's like, Oh, he doesn't end up with summer at the end. Like, what a bummer. And I remember loving that when it first came out being like, yeah, that's something different, you know, and that story is not a tragedy by any stretch of the imagination, but it has the unexpected name. So I think it's important to consider those types of plots.

Michael Mioduski 23:40

The one that came to my mind while I was reading was The Talented Mr. Ripley, did you ever watch that movie? All right, maybe check it out. So I won't go into it

Molly Geoghegan 23:47

I was I talked about this in the voyage and return and the societal voyage and return and I was thinking of Devil Wears Prada where she kind of gets carried away with all the fashion and the money and damage and status. But inevitably she does return it's not tragic she can get carried away with it and she goes on to like you know be the journalist she wanted to be

Michael Mioduski 24:07

tell you what the very last sentence of the tragedy plot sets up. Plot number seven Yeah, our final like this is plot best for last maybe

Molly Geoghegan 24:16

this one might be so good rising from the ashes it's the rebirth plot everyone so we'll be covering that one next and finally to close our Chris Booker seven plots why we tell stories and then Mikey and I will understand everything there is to know about storytelling, I think sounds right. The podcast might end after that.

Michael Mioduski 24:34

Yeah. And, but we might as well do one or two last vice cafe's cabinets

Molly Geoghegan 24:39

Yeah. What do you think I know what you're gonna say already for the song The tragedy saw is inevitably say it told me what I was gonna say Dire Straits Romeo and Juliet. And I would like to also plug with that song because I was a millennial and didn't listen to that one first. The Killers do a pretty awesome cover of that and I thought that was the original so sorry to sorry everybody, but now I know and I like both. I like them all. And I think that's a really great job.

Michael Mioduski 25:18

Mark Knopfler if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Yeah, just die was just completely response.

Molly Geoghegan 25:26

Sorry guys I loved I'm sure they do. But let's Yeah, I just went backwards. You know, I made it, you know? Well, Gen Z

Michael Mioduski 25:34

might not know was what I was gonna say. But there's a song from 1994 album Illmatic NAS, life's a bitch. keepin it real. Life. Life's a bitch and then you die. Yeah, I'm walking out to that one.

Molly Geoghegan 25:54

Okay, perfect. I love that for the tragedy. I also would like to plug I'm a huge fan of the Romeo and Juliet Romeo plus Juliet Baz Luhrmann version, and the soundtrack is pretty amazing. Yeah, it's with DiCaprio and Claire Danes. My OG crush on DiCaprio started there for sure. And yeah, it's beautiful. It's so well made and really funky and kind of trippy if you'd haven't seen it for sure. Like strobe light warning, you know, but, but the soundtrack if you need something kind of tragic and epic to listen to is really good. So there you go. Cool. You could also do I'd also like to plug maybe Olivia Rodriguez driver's license that's a pretty tragic song you set forever No I travel on pasture so that's that's that's one of the walkout to as a tragedy

Michael Mioduski 26:41

thank you well first blessing that in

Molly Geoghegan 26:45

all right yeah, not

Michael Mioduski 26:46

to our editor will comer down in a town shout out to our illustrated No no, Florida's I think in Savannah, Savannah. New Orleans Savannah. Love

Molly Geoghegan 26:56

you guys. You keep the podcast rolling shout out

Michael Mioduski 26:59

to the ghost ranch communication steam ghost ranch.com Do you or someone you love struggle with PowerPoint? Do you have a presentation crisis? call our hotline or visit ghost ranch.com Bunch of visual storytelling experts people who love and actually geek out working in PowerPoint and Google Slides all day every day and making it look like something you'd be proud to present and we

Molly Geoghegan 27:21

are known for speediness so we will respond to your cold email please email us we have nothing to lose. You can also reach out also don't forget Press thinkers to follow presentation thinking on Instagram pres with a Z thinking on Twitter and hashtag presentation thinking I'm all over that so DM me, Molly at ghost ranch.com And

Michael Mioduski 27:42

you can find this out there. Alright, write us out Well, until next time, keep on pitching to sad

Molly Geoghegan 27:48

music Don. Don don don. Okay, bye